Curse

moko · Apr 12, 2007, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

You do realize that soul reaping IS the necro version of energy management? That this attribute serves no other purpose besides energy management? And then you do realize that this energy management is what was nerfed? Let's compare it to a couple primaries that I think work good in the grand scheme of things.
Leadership. it makes a bunch of skills work better, and it basically makes chants cast for free in a full group (and with 5e chants, you actually gain net energy),
Critical Strikes. it makes a bunch of skills work better, it increases the chance of getting critical hits, and it returns energy on each critical hit. and again, with some skills like Critical Strike, results in a net energy gain.
Mysticism. it makes a bunch of skills (including the overpowered avatars and a bunch of nice cheap healing) work better, and gives you energy and health whenever an enchantment ends on you.
All of these have a "gives x energy when y happens" effect like soul reaping, without a timer, and with the added benefit of useful skills in their lines.
Now, let's take a look at Soul Reaping's current status.
it makes like... 2 skills work better. it gives you energy when something dies, half energy when a spirit dies. and once you gain energy from soul reaping, you cannot reap again for 5 seconds. This means that if a spirit dies and you get (half) energy from it, you still cannot gain energy for 5 seconds, and therefore only recieved half of the attribute's bonus for that 5 second span. Soul reaping is now the ONLY attribute with an arbitrary timer. It was perfectly balanced before, it was energy management, good energy management, and ONLY energy management. instead of taking a free skill like glyph of lesser energy, necros invested a bunch of attribute points into soul reaping.
just because energy management isn't done in the same way doesn't mean its overpowered. My monk can go forever without running out of energy, and he doesn't use energy management at all! my paragon can go forever without running out of energy, and that is because of HIS primary. my ranger can go forever without running out of energy, again... his primary. my assassin? yep, primary. in fact, my only charcter that really runs into energy problems is my warrior, and that's fine because warriors are super powerful without needing a bunch of energy. And now, after the SR changes: my necro, when I get shafted by dying spirits.

you obviously dont realise that soul reaping still is an awesome energy management and was incredible overpowered before, allowing the necromancer to play NEARLY ANYTHING he wants with no matter how many high energy spells.

now compare that to other classes. -_-

and yeah..i wanna see you spam HIGH ENERGY COST SKILLS ON YOUR PARAGON, RANGER AND MONK! try spamming heal party CONSTANTLY. try spamming CONCUSSION shot, try spamming i dunno what par skill. then you can compare it with necros. they COULD and still CAN spam high energy skills!

Helcaraxe · Apr 12, 2007, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

You do realize that soul reaping IS the necro version of energy management? That this attribute serves no other purpose besides energy management? And then you do realize that this energy management is what was nerfed? Let's compare it to a couple primaries that I think work good in the grand scheme of things.
Leadership. it makes a bunch of skills work better, and it basically makes chants cast for free in a full group (and with 5e chants, you actually gain net energy),
Critical Strikes. it makes a bunch of skills work better, it increases the chance of getting critical hits, and it returns energy on each critical hit. and again, with some skills like Critical Strike, results in a net energy gain.
Mysticism. it makes a bunch of skills (including the overpowered avatars and a bunch of nice cheap healing) work better, and gives you energy and health whenever an enchantment ends on you.
All of these have a "gives x energy when y happens" effect like soul reaping, without a timer, and with the added benefit of useful skills in their lines.
Now, let's take a look at Soul Reaping's current status.
it makes like... 2 skills work better. it gives you energy when something dies, half energy when a spirit dies. and once you gain energy from soul reaping, you cannot reap again for 5 seconds. This means that if a spirit dies and you get (half) energy from it, you still cannot gain energy for 5 seconds, and therefore only recieved half of the attribute's bonus for that 5 second span. Soul reaping is now the ONLY attribute with an arbitrary timer. It was perfectly balanced before, it was energy management, good energy management, and ONLY energy management. instead of taking a free skill like glyph of lesser energy, necros invested a bunch of attribute points into soul reaping.
just because energy management isn't done in the same way doesn't mean its overpowered. My monk can go forever without running out of energy, and he doesn't use energy management at all! my paragon can go forever without running out of energy, and that is because of HIS primary. my ranger can go forever without running out of energy, again... his primary. my assassin? yep, primary. in fact, my only charcter that really runs into energy problems is my warrior, and that's fine because warriors are super powerful without needing a bunch of energy. And now, after the SR changes: my necro, when I get shafted by dying spirits.

This whole post pisses me off... so let me get this straight, you are pissed off because you actually have to dump points in an attribute for energy management? An attribute that doesnt even require you to put skills from it on your bar to work right. You can just sit there and get energy, let's compare this to the mesmer...

Fast Casting - Increases the speed at which spells are cast. At 16 Fast Casting there is roughly a 50% reduction in cast times.

Now, if you notice there is no energy management there... in fact that is anti-energy management. So, mesmer get to use inspiration for energy (which was nerfed, but we still use it). However, inspiration is not passive, so not only do I need to invest attribute points in it but I also need to take AT LEAST 1 skill from that line (usually drain enchantment for me) and most of the time I take (the buff on auspicious incantation is pwnage) 2 skills. That limits me now to 5 skills for my build (2 for energy, and 1 rez).

The necro can achieve the same thing and still have 7 slots (7 skills, 1 rez). So quit yer bitchin... grow some balls... and live with the nerf.... it's not like you were the only one that was nerfed ye flippin' crybaby.

While we're at it, let's take a look at some other primary attributes.

Strength - Gives extra percentages of armor penetration per point in invested.
(This has nothing to do with energy, granted warriors have adrenaline to compensate. This primary though is still very much broken as the small amount of penetration granted is barely even noticeable.)

Energy Storage - Increases max energy by 3 points per 1 point of Energy Storage.
(Gives a large pool of energy, but no long-term energy management unless skills are taken from this attribute line for the single purpose of energy-management)

Spawning Power - Summoned creatures created by you have an extra 4% base health per point of Spawning Power.
(Again, this has nothing to do with energy, and has no effect at all on ritualists who don't summon things, again this is a very broken primary)

Divine Favor - Gives a healing bonus for all spells targeting an ally.
(While this is a very good primary for monks, it again has absolutely nothing to do with energy management, except for the one or two skills tied to this attribute that can be used for energy-management. Still this is nowhere near as powerful as a primary as Soul Reaping was and still is.)

Mysticism - Gives a neglible heal and small amount of energy whenever an enchantment ends on you.
(Alright, yes this is energy-management... but guess what? It's not passive, you actually have to bring enchantments on your bar for it to work. If a Dervish brings nothing but scythe attacks and an elite form, they get no benefit from this. However the necro gets the benefit from Sould Reaping no matter what is on their skill bar.)

Leadership - Returns energy for each ally within earshot whenever you use a shout or chant.
(This one is also energy management, but just like the Dervish you actually have to do something to get it. You can't just sit there and get energy. If a paragon loads up his bar with spear attacks, just like the Dervish, he will receive no benefit at all from his primary attribute, unlike the necro)

I think you get the idea... so honestly stfu and take a nerf like the rest of us. I'm gonna laugh when they nerf minions again

Former Ruling · Apr 12, 2007, 04:06 AM // 04:06

The only one I am sad about (and honestly didn't expect) is Icy Viens :\

I actually used Icy Viens on my Hero MMs, it was a bit of AoE damage from time to time and MMs dont need an elite per say anyway. Now I guess I'll be swithing to Reaper's Mark - That everyone runs so I cant be original

I understand its part of alittle Necro Spike thingy...but It wasnt the problem with the build.

EDIT:

Quote:

(the buff on auspicious incantation is pwnage)

I dont think that skill was actually changed...They just shortened and clearified the Description (something they need to do to Unyeilding Aura too..)

As for the primaries, the ones with a lesser passive effect (like Strength) are given alot of skills to compensate. Some primiaries are might to be invested in for the passive effect (Like Fast Casting, Or Expertise) but some need alittle something sweet in the line to make you like it. You'll also notice that MOST of the new classes have restrictive primaries (Rits focus on setting spriits, paragon focuses on shouts/chants, dervish focuses on enchants) while the original classes have broader primaries.

Miral · Apr 12, 2007, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helcaraxe

This whole post pisses me off... so let me get this straight, you are pissed off because you actually have to dump points in an attribute for energy management? An attribute that doesnt even require you to put skills from it on your bar to work right. You can just sit there and get energy, let's compare this to the mesmer...

Fast Casting - Increases the speed at which spells are cast. At 16 Fast Casting there is roughly a 50% reduction in cast times.

Now, if you notice there is no energy management there... in fact that is anti-energy management. So, mesmer get to use inspiration for energy (which was nerfed, but we still use it). However, inspiration is not passive, so not only do I need to invest attribute points in it but I also need to take AT LEAST 1 skill from that line (usually drain enchantment for me) and most of the time I take (the buff on auspicious incantation is pwnage) 2 skills. That limits me now to 5 skills for my build (2 for energy, and 1 rez).

The necro can achieve the same thing and still have 7 slots (7 skills, 1 rez). So quit yer bitchin... grow some balls... and live with the nerf.... it's not like you were the only one that was nerfed ye flippin' crybaby.

While we're at it, let's take a look at some other primary attributes.

Strength - Gives extra percentages of armor penetration per point in invested.
(This has nothing to do with energy, granted warriors have adrenaline to compensate. This primary though is still very much broken as the small amount of penetration granted is barely even noticeable.)

Energy Storage - Increases max energy by 3 points per 1 point of Energy Storage.
(Gives a large pool of energy, but no long-term energy management unless skills are taken from this attribute line for the single purpose of energy-management)

Spawning Power - Summoned creatures created by you have an extra 4% base health per point of Spawning Power.
(Again, this has nothing to do with energy, and has no effect at all on ritualists who don't summon things, again this is a very broken primary)

Divine Favor - Gives a healing bonus for all spells targeting an ally.
(While this is a very good primary for monks, it again has absolutely nothing to do with energy management, except for the one or two skills tied to this attribute that can be used for energy-management. Still this is nowhere near as powerful as a primary as Soul Reaping was and still is.)

Mysticism - Gives a neglible heal and small amount of energy whenever an enchantment ends on you.
(Alright, yes this is energy-management... but guess what? It's not passive, you actually have to bring enchantments on your bar for it to work. If a Dervish brings nothing but scythe attacks and an elite form, they get no benefit from this. However the necro gets the benefit from Sould Reaping no matter what is on their skill bar.)

Leadership - Returns energy for each ally within earshot whenever you use a shout or chant.
(This one is also energy management, but just like the Dervish you actually have to do something to get it. You can't just sit there and get energy. If a paragon loads up his bar with spear attacks, just like the Dervish, he will receive no benefit at all from his primary attribute, unlike the necro)

I think you get the idea... so honestly stfu and take a nerf like the rest of us. I'm gonna laugh when they nerf minions again

You speak like you think I'm mainly a necro. I have one character of each class. My warrior being the one I play most. It's not about crying about nerfs. Its not even that I think it wasn't overpowered before. My thought is that instead of nerfing SR they should buff some other primaries. And my thought is that if nerfing SR, they took the completely wrong approach. making it 1 energy per two points would be a much better nerf. The 5 second timer is just stupid, makes it more like playing some silly timing mini-game in mario party than playing a necromancer.

I'm not going to touch most of your post... half of it is just odd misplaced rage (not sure why... I'm not attacking you) and the rest is just standard info. However, there is a couple of things wrong with your assessment of dervish primary. first, most enchantment spells are useful and theres really no reason why a dervish wouldn't have any. second, secondary class enchantments also count, so can take a cheap useful enchantment that ends quickly like say.... reversal of fortune? third, if that dervish is on a team, any enchantment cast on him by allies also counts towards mysticism.

As for my own characters since someone asked... here's their situations

my monk. yeah, I don't spam high energy spells. but the point is I can still get my job done without that just fine. whereas a necromancer pretty much has to spam high energy spells...

my mesmer. as long as I don't run distortion, he does just fine on energy. and even distortion is fine if I have something like IW to do damage while I am without energy...

elementalists.... yeah, sometimes have to use energy management skills. but it is also the ones that GETS the amazing energy skills like glyph of lesser energy. and the other skills they have that require the energy management are very powerful. something to note: E/N is generally far more accepted among the masses than N/E. someone walks around with N/E above their name and they get laughed at. elementalists' main problem is getting shafted on primeval armor

ritualist... when restoration, never need energy management. when communing/channeling/etc, mighty was vorizun (sp?) provides both a nice energy boost as well as an armor bonus... quite useful.

edit: just a note to emphasize something: in the previous post, I said that I think leadership and mysticism and dual strikes work good. I think these are the primaries the others should be balanced around, and am in no way asking for nerfs to them.

edit2: on more note on soul reaping. you still have to kill something to begin with to get any benefit from it. until the bodies start hitting the floor, it could be considered a completely inactive primary, where as others trigger during the battle whether things are dying or not. That means in a stalemate against a particularly vigorous boss foe, soul reaping is wasted attribute points. (yes I play pve. thats where content is)

arcanemacabre · Apr 12, 2007, 06:07 AM // 06:07

It seems the most common recurring argument for the change is the one that claims how insane and overpowered the e-management was from SR - at least when it comes to explaining the PvE side of the nerf. So let me get this straight, the e-management was soooo good, the best even, that anyone who wasn't running around as a N/ were pretty much gimping themselves, right?

Think about this: What are the three most common PvE Necro builds out there? Are they nukers? Spirit-Spammers? Umm, touchers? (hahaha, sorry, had to) No. They are MM, SS, and BiP. All three can, and are used in farming groups. Now wait a minute, aren't those primarily Necro skills? Well if Necros have such insane e-management, why aren't they using other classes skills all the time, taking advantage of Monk heals (other than Heal Party in the BiP builds), Ele nukes, Rit Spirits (outside of PvP), etc?

Well I think I have an answer. The Necro skills, since the beginning, were all balanced with SR in mind. When you nerf SR, you have to, in return, buff the skills, to keep a balance. When this happens, the Necro will no longer be the best to use their own skills, they will be cheap and effective enough for any class. Sins can take advantage of some nice, cheaper hexes. Eles will revel in the more expensive skills that needed to be buffed in damage or effect. Rangers, well, they'll continue to touch their way to the top.

The worst part of all of it, is that this is only the PvE implications. These "buffs" will either take too long to show up, or they simply won't happen because of balance in PvP. Either someone overlooked this "small" problem, or they just didn't care since it's PvE. I'm betting on the latter. Regardless, there will be no shortage of people to claim SR's overpoweredness pre-nerf, nor will there be a shortage of people claiming it works fine post-nerf and 'if you can't use it effectively now, you're a terrible Necro'.

Carry on.

HolyHawk · Apr 12, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

They should just make diversion elite, instead of nerfing it over and over. I dropped it from my bar to toy with other babies and I am loving it. With so many mind blasts, tridents, and other spammable skills diversion is more than fine. The fact you need to take skills to manage your skill and even pick me/e for glyph because inspiration in general sucks is a good built-in nerf. Reward inspiration point investment again, so mesmer, primary mesmer get advantadge with it. Oh, they forgot to nerf blackout, AGAIN.